“How can I grow my mural business when I’m a beginner?” – Deborah Downey

Jessica Craddock: Hello, and welcome back to Intuitive Art Sales. Today I'm going to be talking to Debbie Downey, who is a face painter and balloon twister turned muralist. Isn't that cool.

Right now in her business, she's working towards making more money per commissioner mural as well as getting away from working nights and weekends. She's really excited about kids' spaces and small businesses. And she wants to know how to find more of these clients in a short timeframe so that she can make more money with her art.

If your own art business would benefit from learning how to reach out to create clients, this is an excellent conversation for you to listen in on. So with that, let's get into it.

Jessica Craddock: Welcome back to Intuitive Art Sales. I am here with Debbie and we're going to be talking about how to move her mural business forward in a way that feels really good for her. So, Debbie, let's talk about this a little bit more. You mentioned you love kids murals. You also mentioned you're kind of in a space where you're taking whatever it is that comes your way.

Let's, let's just chat through it a little bit. What's happening in your business?

Debbie Downey: Okay, well, first I should say I'm still in the like ball rolling stage. But this is like round two because a year ago I was getting things going with this stream of people coming in asking about murals, and I got pregnant tired and took a long break.

So, there hasn't been a whole lot lately. Like when I say I'm taking what's coming. It's the tiniest Um, so Lately, got do a mural a nonprofit, of a community fridge. That one was great. And recent one, I just painted one two days ago a children's dental office.

Jessica Craddock: Cool. How'd you get those?

Debbie Downey: Okay. So first one, I think they just found me online, and this most recent one, actually, I've been just waiting to develop my relationship with them a little more before I asked. They found my information because I just got an email.

Jessica Craddock: Right. So, they're finding you. All right.

Debbie Downey:  Maybe online, maybe through a referral, something along those lines. Yeah.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. So, what do you want your business to look like in two years?

Debbie Downey: In two years? I really want that mural business where I'm like, Oh, I'm booked the next few months out. And I’ve raised my minimum for projects. And, you know, I'm taking the stuff that I'm really excited about and not just the ones that make me drag my feet.

Jessica Craddock: Right. It sounds like the primary motivation here is to be bringing in an income. Does that sound accurate?

Debbie Downey: Yeah.

Jessica Craddock: And that's okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. What do you charge for a mural right now?

Debbie Downey: I'm charging around 20 per foot.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. And does that feel like a good price moving forward?

Debbie Downey: No, it's a beginner price.

Jessica Craddock: Okay,

Debbie Downey: I've been told from other artists area that's low end, like that's the starting point. And sometimes I'm charging below that.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. Okay.

Debbie Downey: Depending on the complexity.

[00:04:07] Determine what you would like your income to be.

Jessica Craddock: And, I don't want to say like, what's your end goal? Because the end goal is to consistently grow it forever, right? But in order for you to feel like this is worth it to you, what do you need to be bringing in in a three-month period right now for it to feel like this is working?

Debbie Downey: Okay. In a three-month period… really, my first goal is to match what was making in the pre-COVID. I was just exclusively running my entertainment business, doing face painting and twisting. And I was successful at that for years and years. COVID kind of came in and, you know, slowed things down majorly.

Also, I had kids at the same time. So, I had intentions before having kids that, you know, I was looking to not working nights and weekends.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: So, I would like match what I was making then, which, last year's was like 20,000 every three months.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. 20,000 for three months with no nights and weekends is like, that's where I'm headed next. That's where I want to go.

Debbie Downey: Mostly no nights and weekends.

Jessica Craddock: Mostly no nights and weekends.

Debbie Downey: As long as it's mostly, I'm good. I just painted a mural over the weekend.

Jessica Craddock: You know, we got to start somewhere, I guess. Okay.

So, if it's $20 a square foot at that price point, how many would you have to be doing in order to get to that amount approximately? I know they're all different.

Debbie Downey: Oh, math. Um,

Jessica Craddock: I'm not good at math either, but I can help. I can pull up a calculator, and you talk me through it.

Debbie Downey: Okay. So, I'd get to the point where my projects are at least in the thousand-dollar range. You know, I want to be in that thousand, fifteen-hundred-dollar range. That would be my first goal. Of course, I would love to be painting bigger murals. I would love to have murals so big that I need to hire multiple artists come work with me. I love doing that.

Jessica Craddock: hmm.

Debbie Downey: So, I don't know what…

Jessica Craddock: Okay. Different question. If we took the two last ones that you did and totaled the price and divided it by two, can you do that math in your head or do you want me to do it?

Debbie Downey: Oh, I can't because I'm actually not done with my previous customer. So, I'm still working on another wall for them and one was a nonprofit. It was a unique project.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, but we have to start somewhere. So, if you're saying I would like it to be a thousand to fifteen hundred

Debbie Downey: With normal pricing, the nonprofit mural, I normally would have charged about a thousand or $1200.

Jessica Craddock: Okay.

Debbie Downey: And the one I’m doing right now, I think it's going end up around the $1200, to $1300 dollar range.

Jessica Craddock: All right, so backtracking, first you said my next goal is twenty thousand for three months and mostly not nights and weekends. And then you said, well, actually the next thing I want to hit is thousand to fifteen hundred minimum So that's step one. And even though you gave them nonprofit pricing, I think we should still qualify that as we're hitting that goal.

Debbie Downey: hitting that goal.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. So, we got two under our belt. So then is the next goal, we're breaking this down like baby steps, 20, 000 for three months. That's okay. That's what I do. Or is the next goal mostly not nights and weekends? Which one do we prioritize?

Debbie Downey: Well, see the weekends thing is already kind of prioritizing itself because I am still working some weekends with my other business.

Jessica Craddock: We said mostly.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. So honestly doing this children's dental mural kind of a conflict of interest. Like, I want to do more children's dental offices, and their hours my kids are in school.

[00:08:25] Your financial position determines the action you take now.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, so the reason why I'm asking all of these, like, really nitpicky questions is I want to figure out what we do next in order to reach next highest priority. So, I kind of think about you're either in one of two places. You're in crap, I need money now, or I am safe and okay, and I can cover my bills. And if I don't hit that huge goal or small goal or whatever size goal right now, it's okay, I'm growing toward it in a sustainable way.

If we were number one, money now, we would be working more nights and weekends than we wanted to in order to hit the money goal. If we were safe and secure and I can't, I want this, but I can let it take longer, then we can prioritize the mostly not nights and weekends over the $20,000. Does that make sense?

Debbie Downey: Yes.

Jessica Craddock: Okay.

Debbie Downey: I'm in a second group. I am okay, and I have my other business going that is taking up my weekends.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: I don’t really have to worry about the speed of the mural business.

Jessica Craddock: So, our 1st goal was 1000 to 1500 dollar projects. In order to get to 20,000 in 3 months we would have to, let's say they're 1,200, because I think that's the quote you gave me. We're going to do math on the calculator, which means that would be 16 murals in 3 months.

Divided by three would be approximately five and a half a month. How does that number feel to you?

Debbie Downey: That feels like too many. I feel like I should be aiming for bigger projects, more focused on the client.

Jessica Craddock: So, if we then have the question of I could Say I would rather do 2, 000 murals and turn down people who ask who will not hit that number. Or, I would rather do Take the business as it comes and gradually work my way up to charging more, taking fewer. Which road do you choose?

Debbie Downey: Um, I feel like the taking it slower building it up might be the right for me.

[00:11:08] Decide on the type of projects you want to be doing.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, there's no wrong answer here. It's just about getting really clear about What do I say yes to and what do I say no to and feeling good about that choice because you made it very consciously.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. No, I feel like I'd say yes to the small projects right now, as I'm, I feel like figuring out my process.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: For designing for executing my relationship my customers.

Jessica Craddock: So, if a two thousand, five-thousand-dollar mural comes along, we're not going to turn it down because we're still figuring that out, of course. But we're also not going to turn down the thousand dollar ones because it's a stream of income that's coming in and helping us practice and make connections.

Debbie Downey: I feel like it's putting more in my portfolio, giving more practice on the design end. And some are going to lead to other opportunities down the road.

Jessica Craddock: Right. So right now, we're pretty open ended, like we're going to take it for now. But I like to personally have some parameter that I am working toward in order to get closer to what I want it to be. So earlier you said, I really like things that have to do with kids, whether it's a kid's room, a kid's dentist office, a kid's whatever.

Debbie Downey: I mean, I don't really want to only do kids’ stuff.

Jessica Craddock: Oh, okay. Tell me more.

Debbie Downey: It's fun, and I do love these ones more in public spaces that are geared towards children.

Jessica Craddock: Okay.

Debbie Downey: I don't really want to be stuck in like nurseries and kids’ rooms. I would love to do more businesses and more public spaces.

Jessica Craddock: Got it. Does that include nonprofits or no?

Debbie Downey: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:04] Setting parameters for yourself helps you narrow down what you want.

Jessica Craddock: So, the, the parameter, I like to think about this kind of like a, an art school assignment. Whether it's high school, college, whatever that is, where the professor says, okay, you get an 18 by 24 sheet of paper and you get to use pencil only.

And then you can draw whatever you want, or I get an 18 by 24 piece of paper. I can use pencil only. And you have to draw the still life. It's like we're giving ourselves assignments of what we want to get more of. So far we have things that are in public spaces, probably businesses, probably nonprofits.

Those are the people we want to aim toward. That's our assignment we're giving ourself. We are not currently putting a minimum on it because we want to build that portfolio in our context, but maybe that's the next parameter that gets added.

Debbie Downey: Yeah.

Jessica Craddock: So how many would you feel comfortable having under your belt before you say, okay, I want to move to a thousand as my minimum?

The more clearly we can define this, the more clearly we can move forward.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. No, I guess I hadn't realized I did not, have not clearly defined any of this stuff in my head.

Jessica Craddock: That's okay. That's okay.

Debbie Downey: That's why I signed up for this.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: Um, okay, so how many before I decide it's time to have a minimum? I don't know. I feel like it'd be more like the number of requests to have coming in.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: If the work is finding me and I'm not being grabby trying to get it. That would make me feel more secure in setting that minimum and turning away smaller projects.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. So, with your own parameters that you have set, you said, I have a certain amount coming in before I start moving up the ladder of minimums. How many do you need? I feel like I'm being really annoying right now. I want

Debbie Downey: You want a specific answer. Okay.

Jessica Craddock: Yes, a real specific answer.

Debbie Downey: Like, let's see. Or, you know, it might just come down to next fall. I'm like, let's do it.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. Let's do it. Okay. So, either A is happening or I hit next fall and I'm just going to do it. What is A?

Debbie Downey: Okay, A, let's say 10 more murals.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, so I either get 10 murals or September 1st hits, whichever comes first. I then move into I have a thousand dollar minimum.

Debbie Downey: Okay.

Jessica Craddock: Does that feel good?

Debbie Downey: That feels good. It might even need to be like $1500 minimum. Let's say that. Okay.

Jessica Craddock: $1,500 minimum. All right. How do we get ten murals? How do we speed this up?

[00:16:15] Reach out to people directly to get more projects.

Debbie Downey: Oh, well, that's how I came find your podcast. I heard you on the Artist Academy podcast.

Jessica Craddock: Andrea's, yeah.

Debbie Downey: Yes, Andrea’s. And she said, okay, so what would be your advice to a mural artist like me getting started? You said, let me tell you what I wouldn't do. And I felt like you saw me.

I felt called out.

Jessica Craddock: Sorry. No, sorry, not sorry.

Debbie Downey: So, yeah, basically, you said don't hide behind social media and your computer. You need to actually reach out to people.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm

Debbie Downey: I know that's what I need to do. I need to just cold call, go into places, talk to people. Tell people I'm doing murals, and I want more murals. Yeah.

Jessica Craddock: Andrea, she was on my podcast. It hasn't come out yet. We flip flopped and that conversation was about how you would go knock, knock and go get a mural. So that'll be good. You'll enjoy that one. But in the meantime, part of the reason why we put parameters on this in the first place is so we know what we do and don't want to knock, knock for.

Debbie Downey: Mm hmm.

Jessica Craddock: We don't want to go tell all our friends. I do murals and nurseries. I mean, you might get 10 murals from doing that, but that's not the direction we want to move toward. So, if we had to pick something that we would be able to work on ideally during normal work hours, that's in a public space with a business, a nonprofit, if you could have anything you wanted, where, where would you start?

Debbie Downey: So, mean I got this one dentist on fire writing down the names and numbers of all the local children's dental offices in my area and I reached out to a few. Now have my eyes for businesses like I saw like a new, some sort of workout place opening up nearby me and found them on social media, the owner's media. And I was just like, Hi, congrats. You’re opening a new studio. Do you need a mural? And they actually responded, but it was a no. You know, that's what I'm still discovering about myself too, is what I like to paint, who I like to design for, who my ideal customer is. A lot of that is still a big question for me.

Jessica Craddock: And that's okay, because you get to figure that out as we go, but any, I keep using the word parameter, any parameter we can put on it will help us to figure it out. Narrow, narrow, narrow. So public spaces, businesses, nonprofits, maybe kids. That's what we've got so far.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. Okay, and schools too. I've had a few schools reach out to me that I'm like trying to keep in touch with.

Jessica Craddock: So it’s not 100%, but I think mostly what I’m hearing is I'm waiting for them to come to me.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. Like wait, well, I don't want to wait. I know I need to not wait. I need to go out to people. This is a very new development for me that I’m realizing is I really need to get on this.

Jessica Craddock: It's a good development to have. When you reach that point where you're like, I don't need to wait for people, I need to go get it. That's kind of a game changer moment.

Debbie Downey: I think it, think it is. I'm changing my perspective, and I'm just kind pushing myself get started. And it's, it's feeling a lot better than, you know, when I first heard you on that podcast saying, you need to reach out to people and businesses.

Jessica Craddock: So, I want to give you two sides to this.

Debbie Downey: Okay.

Jessica Craddock: Number one is, while you're probably going to hate me for saying it, the more people you ask, the more people are going to say yes.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. I know it’s a numbers game.

Jessica Craddock: Yeah. But hearing it sometimes makes you go, oh, okay, I'm going to go do it.

Debbie Downey: Yeah, my husband is in sales. I've heard it.

Jessica Craddock: Yay husband! Help us out.

[00:23:26] Continue to tweak how you're doing reach-outs so that more of them say yes.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, then the other thing is how can we continue to tweak how we're doing the reach outs so that more of them say yes?

So, walk me through and I want to do my best to keep this in like a 30 minute container. So, we're kind of moving quickly here, but do your best to walk me through what that email to the gym looked like. Or was that it what you just said?

Debbie Downey: Yeah. So, I was Instagram messages, and I just said like, Hey, I'm in the parking lot and I see that you're opening your new studio. Congratulations! I live in the area, and I paint murals. And I can do logos, I can  paint your existing logo on your wall. I can do a combination of a logo and a customized design. So, if you're needing anything, let me know. You know, something along those lines.

Jessica Craddock: So that's not bad. Right?

Debbie Downey: Okay.

Jessica Craddock: That’s a fairly decent reach out. Hey, Congratulations, you gave them a nice compliment, you're doing great. That's cool that you're opening a new place. You also said here's what I do. You informed them. Here's what I do, and here's how I could do it. So, actually, I kind of want to outline a quick process here for you.

So, I like to think about, if we're thinking about volume plus improvement, I'm going to reach out to 10 people in the same way. I'm going to come up with a kind of formula for myself, and I'm going to see how many people initially respond. It doesn't necessarily have to be a, they ended up buying. Because that's step two or step three is how is my follow up? How is my this? How's my that?

But the first problem to solve is getting them to respond. So, if I email, Instagram, whatever, ten businesses and say… Compliment, inform, here's how I can do it, do you need anything? If I follow that formula, how many of those ten people respond? Once we have our data, we're playing numbers today. It's just the way it's going. It's cool. I know people, artists don't like to think in numbers, but that’s how my brain works.

Debbie Downey: This is all about the last few weeks, to be totally honest. So, I'm in the headspace for it. Yeah.

Jessica Craddock: Cool. So, let's say two people respond. That's good information. And then you can do the same thing with, okay, of those two people, I'm going to respond in this way and see what happens from there. But that's the next step. Most people skip from, I talked to 10 people and 10 of them didn't buy. But they didn't count the middle wins where we were doing good things.

Debbie Downey: The ones that actually respond or are receptive.

Jessica Craddock: Right.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. That's what I don’t really know how to track. I don't even know how to, I should keep track of who I'm reaching out to and followed up with or not. I feel like I have five different lists. I'm kind of afraid I'm getting started and then going to drop 500 balls here.

Jessica Craddock: Uh huh.

Debbie Downey: Any recommendations on that front?

Jessica Craddock: I'm trying real hard not to plug my stuff here because it felt pushy. But, you should come work with me.

[00:27:08] Find a system for tracking your outreach that helps you stay consistent.

Jessica Craddock: But also, besides that, find a way that works for you to be able to document this stuff. Meaning, start with, do I do better on computer? Do I do better on paper? If I kept a journal where I could write this stuff down, or do I like spreadsheets?

Or do I like notes on my phone. Like what's the easiest way for you to remain consistent in the initial tracking of it? So, start with that. Thing two is every time you make that reach out, their name needs to go down on that paper, app, whatever.

Debbie Downey: Right.

Jessica Craddock: Because if that doesn't happen, it just goes off into the clouds somewhere. And then with it, your thoughts and your reminder to follow up and your blah, blah, blah, and then the next part of that is when was the last time I talked to that person? And another part is what was the last thing I said to them. And what's the next thing I need to do?

So, for example, in this example that we're talking about right now, I reach out to 10 people. I write their names down. 8 of them don't respond. 2 of them do. So, I know the next step for those 2 is to. Respond to their questions, answer them, give them the information that they're looking for. For the other eight, depending on your motivation, comfort level, ability to face your fears, maybe I need to send a follow up to those eight.

But the more we work our way through this mentally, the more you can write down, this is my next step. My next step is either this or this with this person. And if they do this, then I do that. If they do this, I do that.

Debbie Downey: Right.

Jessica Craddock: Let's pretend it's a spreadsheet. As it's in the spreadsheet, we have their name, we have the date, we reached out two weeks ago, haven't gotten a response.

So, I'm going to change the date to today. And I'm going to say, I just want to make sure this didn't get lost in your inbox. Um, by the way, I saw that post you did about the new weights and those are my favorite. Whatever. What's my, what's my formula I'm following here. I know that was semi abstract, but it's hard to

Debbie Downey: No, I get it and that's, I understand the formula and, you know, I've done with customers some doing now. It's the more I reach out to, the more I feel the clunkier that system is getting.

Jessica Craddock: How do you feel about spreadsheets?

Debbie Downey: That's what I have. I don't know if I'm fully utilizing it or the correct way. I feel like it could doing for me.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm. Okay. So, after we get off this call, I'm going to send you an email about something I'm making called The Pocket Mentor.

Debbie Downey: Okay.

Jessica Craddock: So, next step is then we have done 10 reach outs. We got two yeses. How can I make a prediction of how I think this could work better? So instead of informing them of what I do, I could say, here's two ways painting a logo on your business would make you more money.

Let's try that formula. And then we do 10 more people and see how many of those said yes or not. Yes. But how many of those responded? So, you're just basically creating a sequence of steps depending on where they're at and trying to make each step work better as you do that. Cause you could just stick with the original email and and send it out to 500 people and you'd get your 10.

We don't want to send 500 messages. That's annoying.

Debbie Downey: No, I do want to get smart about it. I do feel like I just, I have limited time, and so I want to make the most of the time I have to progress the business.

Jessica Craddock: And part of that is doing the initial work where it does take more time so that you can get smarter about it, but it doesn't have to take forever. And our goal right now is 10 murals and that feels doable, I hope.

Debbie Downey: Yes. Yeah, I think so.

[00:31:48] Setting a goal that feels attainable will provide motivation.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. So, between September 1st and now, today is March 5th. Let's call it a whole month. March, April, May, June, July, August, September. So, our goal is a little bit more than one a month.

Debbie Downey: Yeah, that's definitely doable.

Jessica Craddock: And if we can do more reach outs, more tests, we can probably way exceed that. But just having a goal that feels really hittable is motivating to me. When I have something that feels really unachievable, it goes one way or the other. Either it's like challenge accepted or freeze. One or the other, and it could be both at the same time.

So, I like saying10 for you. In order to get 10, if using our numbers that we just collected, we tell 10 people and two of them give us a maybe, let's talk some more about it, and then we can get that number of two to that's one yes, that means if I do 10 reach outs, I can get one mural. So, our goal is 10 reach outs per what?

Debbie Downey: Well, I had already us a goal of 10 per week.

Jessica Craddock: Okay.

Debbie Downey: I felt like that was doable. And then I got sick.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: I still feel like it is doable though.

Jessica Craddock: If we’re trying to get a mural a month, can we start next week with 2 or 3 reach-outs?

Debbie Downey: Absolutely. Yes.

Jessica Craddock: And then do that a couple weeks in a row and hit it. And then make it 4.

Debbie Downey: Okay.

Jessica Craddock: Hit that a couple of times, and then make it 5. Like, work your capacity up in steps.

Debbie Downey: My thought was to just desensitize myself and try to do 10 a week for like two months straight.

Jessica Craddock: And that might work, it might, depending on how much willpower and perseverance you have. I'd rather you make strides and healthy steps and make progress consistently.

Debbie Downey: Yeah, I think consistency is my big holdup.

Jessica Craddock: It's everybody's, but consistency needs willpower.

Debbie Downey: Yes.

Jessica Craddock: So, if you don't have to have the willpower, then you're more consistent. It's like this whole catch 22 thing. Um, all right, so we need to wrap up. But I just wanted to, I was reading this book by a guy named Ramit Sethi. I saw him on Netflix, and I was like, he seems interesting. I'm going to read that. And the last thing that I was reading, he was comparing it to weight loss. He would rather you, and I'm summarizing, but he would rather you cut out one piece of bread per week than say, I'm only going to eat 1200 calories every day. Because one takes all this motivation and willpower. The other is like, I could do that.

And then this person who was the motivation, willpower person quits after a couple of months. The one piece of bread person goes for a year and loses the weight because they just kept going a little bit at a time.

Debbie Downey: Yeah, making it a habit,

Jessica Craddock: But even the habits, sometimes, depending on what the habit is, require that willpower. So, what's just like a no brainer, I can do that, so I can improve 5 percent over time.

Debbie Downey: And I'm feeling like the shift already and reaching out, like pulling into that parking lot and being like, Oh, there's a business opening up. Let me just pull them up on social media. And I was like, I'm just going to do it. Just going to send this message.

Jessica Craddock: Mm hmm.

Debbie Downey: It's the one that someone responded to. So, I think having that in mind too, it's just having my eye out anytime I'm out.

Jessica Craddock: Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, you can count those or not count those in your numbers, whatever. But then you just get a little bit more confidence, and it's a little bit easier. And it just the word habit comes back up here It's just I saw a new business and so I made an ask.

Debbie Downey: Reaching out. Yeah

Jessica Craddock: So let's summarize your next steps. What are you going to do? What are you taking away from this conversation that you're going to take action on next? I do like to think about what is the next problem to solve. The next problem to solve is get 10 murals.

Debbie Downey: Yes.

Jessica Craddock: So, you don't have to think about it too hard yet. That's a bridge to cross, and it will come. But it's not something I need to know right now.

Debbie Downey: I want to get where I can do like two big projects in a month, and that's all I focus on. So, starting with the you know, a thousand, fifteen hundred dollar minimum, that's the beginning of that. Because obviously I don't want to jump straight to that. I'm not ready.

Jessica Craddock: you’re never going to feel ready though, which is why I made you put a number on it.

Debbie Downey: Yeah, you’re right. But my next step is, you know, focusing on the next few murals that I do have lined up.

Jessica Craddock: Okay, I'm going to add one more little bitty tiny thing. Once you get to those 10 murals and you name your minimum, whatever you decided it was going to be, I think we said 1500. I want you to add one more parameter to who do I want to reach out to. What kind of project do I want? It could be anything.

I have no idea what it's going to be yet, but at that time you get to go just a tiny bit narrower.

Debbie Downey: I like that. Okay.

Jessica Craddock: Okay. This was fun.

Debbie Downey: Oh, thank you. Yes, this was fun. Thank you for what you do.

Jessica Craddock: You're welcome. Don't hate me, but I like talking math, even though I can't do it without a calculator.

Debbie Downey: I like to think about math but not talk about it on the spot where I'm required to do it.

Jessica Craddock: Right? Yes.

Debbie Downey: I do like talking numbers though. But thanks for what you do. This is so unique.

Jessica Craddock: Thanks.

Debbie Downey: Yeah. And that's something I've done with my other business but not so much with this one. I don't know why. I just feel like I haven't gotten to the point of really focusing on the numbers yet.

Jessica Craddock: It could be that it could be that it's something you really want to work and maybe you even know a little bit how to make it work. But you're afraid that if you put in all that work and then it doesn't work, you'll be disappointed.

Debbie Downey: Yes. Maybe a little bit of that.

Jessica Craddock: I was just telling my client before I got on the phone with you. Okay. The scarier something is, or the more exciting something is, the more fear that comes along with it. It's just like, they go hand in hand, they're never separate, it's unfortunate, annoying. But wouldn't you rather have it that way than just never changing.

Debbie Downey: Mm hmm. I mean I love doing this, and I know it this is what I am working towards next, however long it takes. But I really don't want it to take forever to really replace the income I used to have.

Jessica Craddock: I think you're going to get there faster than you think you are. You just let yourself take those little baby steps. Baby steps add up to a lot. Okay. Deb, where can people find your murals?

Debbie Downey: Deb designs murals on Instagram, Facebook, and debdesignsmurals.com

Jessica Craddock: All the things

Debbie Downey: All things are called Deb designs murals. Deb designs was taken, so I got specific.

Jessica Craddock: I think that's great. Because designs what?

Debbie Downey: I wanted to leave it open ended, but, you know, then we wouldn't be putting parameters on anything. And I probably wouldn't be where I am now.

Jessica Craddock: Nope. You wouldn't. You're a lot further cause that was taken. So, yay!

Debbie Downey: Thank you other Deb for making that happen for me.

Jessica Craddock: All right. Well, it was lovely talking to you, Debbie.

Debbie Downey: It was lovely talking to you too. Thank so much. This is helpful.

Jessica Craddock: Great. I hope that you go forth and take all the actions. Do it.

Debbie Downey: I’m ready to go! And I’ve got your extra little nuggets in my pocket.

All right Well thank you so much.

Jessica Craddock: You're so welcome. Have a good one.

Debbie Downey: You too.